Reader: Traditional marriage is the foundation of society - Sen...

[Lois]

Bruce W Marien wrote:

Lois,
Marriage was initially a sacramental union performed ONLY IN A CHURCH.

Bruce,
Marriage is a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other without legal sanction.

Marriage is the simple and usual term, without implications as to circumstances and without emotional connotations.

Religion is an opinion and a choice.

[Lois]

Hi Liz,
I think Homosexual couples deserve to have the same rights and benefits as heterosexual couples. Their marriage should not be treated any differntly.

Liz wrote:

<quoted text>
Homosexuals want marriage for the legal protections it gives, like inheritance rights and the right to make healthcare decisions for their spouse if their spouse is incapacitated.
In colonial times, Massachusetts was the first state to seperate marriage and the church. If marriage is solely a religious matter, should atheists be allowed to marry? What about interfaith couples?

[Marie P]

Marriage is a sacred sacrament in the eyes of God. (between and man and woman) Civil unions do not have God in them. Someone put that gay couples only want civil unions. NOT TRUE. I know several couples that would love to have sacramental marriage but cannot because its against their faith. AND they don't have to have a civil union to get benefits such as power of attorney and such. They can just go to an attorney and have papers drawn up.

[Bruce W Marien]

Enough is Enough,
The government doesn't pay any church anything. These churches are COMPLETELY funded by the DONATIONS of the individuals involved. MY RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS allow me to believe what I want to believe, where I want to believe, and how I want to believe. The constitution provides me protection against you and your thoughts regarding churches, and keeps you from doing me harm!

I pay my taxes on time and with little regret...how bout you? I give to Caesar what is Caesar's and I give to God what is God's. Most likely, I am having to take up your slack, but you are certainly not taking up mine!

[devons]

Bruce W Marien wrote:

devons,
I would love to see the states get out of the marriage business...it isn't supposed to be a business, it is a sacramental union between a man and woman in church...BTW, the church had it first and the government took this sacrament between man and woman and instituted it as a civil institution. You might want to study some history...
If the states cannot make civil unions work, I am uncertain why they cannot make them work. My statement regarding civil unions was that civil unions were offered many times to gay couples as a union that could be recognized as a proper union for the purpose of obtaining those benefits afforded those of us that are married. They refused these unions and said they were not the same...they insisted that their union be called a marriage.

I have studied history. What my question is is why are you fighting just against gays entering civil marriage? Your statement indicated that marriage was religious only. Civil marriage has nothing to do with religion. It would seem if you are truly interested in equality that you would be fighting against the states using the word marriage for anybody. No one seems all that upset about the states using the word marriage to marry non religious people.

You might take my original statement and find out why gays say that civil unions are not the same. If you were truly interested in equality it would seem you would have already done some homework on the subject.

[devons]

Marie P wrote:

Marriage is a sacred sacrament in the eyes of God.(between and man and woman) Civil unions do not have God in them. Someone put that gay couples only want civil unions. NOT TRUE. I know several couples that would love to have sacramental marriage but cannot because its against their faith. AND they don't have to have a civil union to get benefits such as power of attorney and such. They can just go to an attorney and have papers drawn up.

Civil marriage does not have God in it. I married in my church 20 years ago. It's time it my marriage was recognised by the states.

[devons]

Bruce W Marien wrote:

Enough is Enough,
The government doesn't pay any church anything. These churches are COMPLETELY funded by the DONATIONS of the individuals involved. MY RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS allow me to believe what I want to believe, where I want to believe, and how I want to believe. The constitution provides me protection against you and your thoughts regarding churches, and keeps you from doing me harm!
I pay my taxes on time and with little regret...how bout you? I give to Caesar what is Caesar's and I give to God what is God's. Most likely, I am having to take up your slack, but you are certainly not taking up mine!

Oh my!! Are you saying your righeous rights can impact mine?

What slack are you taking up? I must say this thing about your taxes sounds a little prideful and not all that humble.

[Marie P]

Bruce I hope you weren't refering to me cuz I'm on your side with this. I believe that marriage is a sacred vow within a church and is blessed by God. Civil unions do not include God in them. That's why they are not performed in churches.

Devons...it shouldn't be called civil marriage because it is not a marriage. Its a civil union.

[Lois]

Bruce W Marien wrote:

Enough is Enough,
I pay my taxes on time and with little regret...how bout you? I give to Caesar what is Caesar's and I give to God what is God's. Most likely, I am having to take up your slack, but you are certainly not taking up mine!

DUH BRUCE!
I pay just as much if NOT more in taxes than you I am sure. It is more likely I am taking up your slack.

No one said you could not have your religious beliefs the problem is you want other people to believe what you believe and for some reason you feel as though you are more righteous and better than everyone else, especially those that do not agree with you. You are not always right.

Must be tough to be so perfect and Godly.

You do not have to like the choices, thoughts, and opinions of others, you do not have to accept them either, JUST live quietly around it and give them respect. The same way you expect it from others.

I have read many of your posts and when someone does not agree with you, you go right to attack mode.
We live in a country where people can be free, make choices and decisions for themselves, and should be protected from the likes of close minded people like you. You expect to have your rights with no harm and so do they.

It goes both ways - like it or not.

[devons]

Marie P wrote:

Bruce I hope you weren't refering to me cuz I'm on your side with this. I believe that marriage is a sacred vow within a church and is blessed by God. Civil unions do not include God in them. That's why they are not performed in churches.
Devons...it shouldn't be called civil marriage because it is not a marriage. Its a civil union.

Then why are you only fighting against gays entering into a civil marriage? Why not fight against the states using the word 'marriage'? It's just strange that this suddenly is a problem for people. The timing would suggest that it's a new concern with the states using the word marriage.

I was married in a church 20 years ago so my use of the word marriage is correct....at least based on my faith.....maybe not based on your faith. Which raises a good question....whose faith do we go by? Do we split up the states based on faith? Do we have different laws based on some one's faith? Or do we so like some countries and who ever has the majority faith will make others live by majority faith regardless of the persons faith?

[Lois]

Marie P wrote:

I believe that marriage is a sacred vow within a church and is blessed by God.

It is your choice to believe waht you want to believe.

Do we all have to agree with you because this is your belief?

[Anna]

DAVE wrote:

Another ingnorant fool with nothing else but time o his hands. What if your daughter or sone were gay? What then, would yor views change? I think they would

Excellant point. I was aganst gay marraige. Then my brother got married when the MA laws changed. Now I beleive the new law was a change for the better. His partner is now an accepted and loved addition to our family. People judge homosexuals as a group but when they meet them one on one and realize their people just like everyone else their opinions often change.

[Lois]

Anna wrote:

<quoted text>
People judge homosexuals as a group but when they meet them one on one and realize their people just like everyone else their opinions often change.

You have an excellent point. They are people.

Recently my husbands family experienced a family shocker. A cousin, whom they suspected might be gay, got married after CA law was passed.

His family is fairly strict catholic faith. I am not.(YEP, and interfaith MARRIAGE)

Surprisingly enough, although some were disappointed,(the older generation), everyone just accepted it. No fuss. No muss.

My husband is still having a little bit of a struggle with it, but he also understands it is what it is.

Over time, I suspect he will get a little more used to it. Then again, maybe he will always struggle a liitle bit with it. He may not ever agree, but he also knows, his opinion is not going to change the world and how people choose to live.

He just lives peacefully around it without protest.

[Anna]

How true Lois. We are a strict Catholic famly and even our grandparents are now not only tolerating but also accepting the marriage. They are both high income tax payers, donate more to charity than a lot of us even make and yet they can't file fedral taxes jointly and cant get social security benefits when the ohter dies. All the hate needs to stop. The catholic church hasnt suffered by their marrage and I haven't seen a single negative affect on any of our famlies, freinds or their neighbors. They made a choice, if you don't like it and its not hurting you and you cant accept it, just ignore it. it's not your business.

[Rikki S]

Marie P wrote:

Marriage is a sacred sacrament in the eyes of God.(between and man and woman) Civil unions do not have God in them. Someone put that gay couples only want civil unions. NOT TRUE. I know several couples that would love to have sacramental marriage but cannot because its against their faith. AND they don't have to have a civil union to get benefits such as power of attorney and such. They can just go to an attorney and have papers drawn up.

Why should two people have to go to an attorney to get all the legal papers drawn up when "marriage" would do that automatically? What about SSI benefits to the surviving partner? No paperwork drawn up by an attorney will allow that! It appears that the problem with the majority of those against same sex "marriage" is the word "MARRIAGE". Somehow the Christian right has laid claim to this word to signify the joining of two people (one man and one woman, by thier standards). What if the word in the Bible had been "union", not "marriage"? Would there still be this fight if a gay or lesbian couple wanted to get "married"?

I have not seen a single reply to the question about how can an atheist couple be "married" since "marriage" is a "holy" affair. What about Hindus, Muslims, non-Christian Native Americans........?

[Sad]

People who speak out against same same marriage have one thing in common...they're all afraid. They're afraid of what God will think if they support such a union and they're afraid that if gay people marry it will make their marriage less special.

They say....oh what's next, a man marrying a mountain lion....or a woman marrying her son?

What about the heterosexual married couples who cheat, lie, and hurt their loved ones? What's so special about that?? I am a heterosexual married female and I am so sick of people judging...judging race, religion, sexual orientation.

They need to mind their own business and treat everyone as an equal. I'm sure some of their behaviors in the bedroom would make others cringe! Who are they to judge???

[Just Give It Time]

Bruce W Marien wrote:

...I also believe that marriage is a religious institution and our government should have never made marriage a civil institution. Homosexual couples absolutely deserve all of the same rights afforded to heterosexual couples with regard to government laws and benefits.
That being said...marriage should not be granted to homosexual couples, it is contrary to church doctrine. The interesting thing is that many states have put forth civil unions for homosexual couples, but they do not want civil unions, they want marriage...I support them in there cause for forming their union and obtaining any of the civil benefits they are entitled to!...

Bruce:
The problem with your viewpoint which is also held by many others with your legitimate feelings and beliefs is that the word "marriage" which may very well be sacred to your church is used throughout the governments' laws... The concept of a "civil union" is only valid in those few states who have created it AND it is not something that is honored in other jurisdictions... There is no equality between the two concepts and will never be without much work being done in 51 separate legislative bodies all to define and agree upon a standard version of "civil union"... Do you honestly think that can happen in this lifetime???
There are only two solutions to this:
(a) the various churches which really each define "marriage" in their own way give up ownership of this concept since the government has adopted the term for something that the church sees as "less"
OR
(b) the word "marriage" gets removed from the plethora of laws, regulations, codes, etc. at all levels of government -- federal, state and local -- then the church can keep the word "marriage" and the government can use the same label for everyone who is viewed to be "partners" under the law for benefits purposes...
On its face your viewpoint is discriminatory, and perhaps this is not intentional because you just do not understand that "marriage" is a universal thing that is recognized and allows the same rights to those married in one state who happen to move to another... Seriously, you need to offer more than just church dogma and citations of doctrine and propose some sort of actual solution that would result in a nation-wide reflexive system to recognize "partnerships" that doesn't involve having to get re-partnered in every state you move to or travel to along your journey through life...

[Just Give It Time]

Marie P wrote:

Marriage is a sacred sacrament in the eyes of God.(between and man and woman) Civil unions do not have God in them. Someone put that gay couples only want civil unions. NOT TRUE. I know several couples that would love to have sacramental marriage but cannot because its against their faith. AND they don't have to have a civil union to get benefits such as power of attorney and such. They can just go to an attorney and have papers drawn up.

Marie:

It sounds to me like you have no concept of the number of "rights" that are granted to "married" couples under the law... You think it is as simple as going to get ONE SET of papers drawn up 'for power of and such'... LOL... There are literally hundreds of such rights, each of which would require such paperwork to be issued in both directions... Someone who follows your plan better be driving an SUV around to be able to carry all those papers with you at all times so you can actually "assert" the rights you have documented on those papers that heterosexual people only merely say: he/she is my husband/wife in order to have them...

That doesn't seem fair OR equal at all...

[SRC]

Marie, you sound like a moron.
Letting same sex couples marry does nothing to make "marriage" less sacred.
Why shouldn't they have the same rights that we do? This includes filing taxes, receiving benefits, etc. You really think that it's not right to extend these options to everyone?

You know, I find it very funny when women write oppressive statements about other groups of people...you know Marie, not too long ago, we weren't allowed to vote or have an opinion.

[Bruce W Marien]

Devons,
You continue to try to create a distinction that doesn't exist. There is no civil marriage'church marriage...there is only marriage. Marriage originally was a pact between a man and woman with God at the center of that marriage.

For so many of you that keep talking about why you don't see it as a big deal...you obviously didn't get married. For those of us that got married in the eyes of God with God's blessing and took a very serious oath, our marriage is sacred and a very important thing to us.

I don't expect you to understand! The reason that some will speak out against gays being married is that it is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ, the individual that first instituted the marriage bond.

I know you will continue to play semantics with the words and thats ok...if you truly wanted to understand why we oppose this, you would study God and church history, not governmental history.

People were marrying before God before the government decided to create a civil union based upon marriage (man and woman). They knew it was good for society and the strengthening of family.